Jamie Hascall 7/16/18

Hi all.  I’d like to ask the members of the group about the current use of pickle in brass mount fabrication at your shops. I had mostly curtailed its use in my shop, partly due to the mess, but mostly due to concerns about proper disposal of used pickle that would obviously contain a lot of heavy metals. I worked on methods to physically clean surfaces with abrasives, and now use a glass bead blast cabinet almost exclusively on all mounts. The reason I ask is that in teaching classes on mountmaking, I feel I should include this as part of the practice in silver brazing. I’ve also learned effective and inexpensive disposal techniques from the King Co. Office of Hazardous Waste Disposal, and that has made me less reticent to use pickle again. I thought I’d see what the current practice is before I mix up a five gallon bucket as we have always done. Your thoughts are appreciated. Best regards, Jamie Jamie Hascall Craftsman, Trainer, Consultant Mountmakingfocus.com jamie@mountmakingfocus.com Seattle, WA

emilio

7/16/18

Jamie,Thanks for bringing this often after thought of our world in mount-making, a curator in our invertebrate dept. made me aware of the heavy metal contaminants one day on a casual conversation. I always have mix a small amount of pickle solution base on the amount of work I'll be doing and I try to keep it in seal chemical containers using it until it becomes to weak. At this point I add some water with baking soda to neutralized the acid and then it goes to a plastic bucket with lid for disposal with our hazardous material. We have a service that comes once every year. I have not looked at any other options at this time due to cost but I would be interested on learning more about the sand blasting technique. Thanks for the discussion,Emilio

Emilio Bras

Exhibits/Mount-making and Lighting

Milwaukee Public Museum

414-278-2765 | emilio@mpm.edu | www.mpm.edu

Philip Brutz

7/16/18

How do you dispose of the heavy metals in the glass bead?

Philip Brutz Mount Maker Exhibition Production The Cleveland Museum of Art 11150 East Boulevard Cleveland, Ohio 44106-1797

T  216-707-2617 F  216-707-6687

www.ClevelandArt.org

Jamie Hascall 7/16/18

That’s a good question Philip, and exactly why I brought the subject up. At this time, I have only used about 1/2 bag of glass bead, and all the used bead is stored. I had not considered it to have a heavy metals contamination as I mostly felt that what was being blasted off was glassified flux and surface oxides and soot. From my understanding of the process, I felt most of that was being pulled off into the vacuum system and was being disposed of in the trash with the vacuum spoils. You now have me re-thinking that as well. I’d appreciate any insights you may have on what level of contamination glass bead may have or produce, as well as your thoughts on pickle. Thanks, Jamie

kate

7/16/18

I met Julia Lowther briefly at the Metchosin School of the Arts here in BC and she happens to have a very complete description of how she disposes of her pickle – which she learned from the local hazardous waste management program in King County, Washington, so this is probably what you do already, Jamie?

https://shoeboxstudio.com/2016/03/02/be-kind-to-fish-dispose-of-all-spent-pickle-responsibly/

I wonder how much copper would be removed by steel wool?

- Kate Kerr

Jamie Hascall 7/16/18

Hi Kate, Thanks for posting that link. It is the method that I too learned from Dave Waddell of King Co Hazardous Waste. I had that exact link set up to post and I encourage everyone to watch it. The important thing about this method is that the use of Slaked Lime sequesters the metals into an insoluble carbonate that can be safely disposed of. Learning this method is why I actually feel interested in using pickle again. In response to your question about steel wool, I don’t believe it would remove a significant amount of copper from the solution. Moreover, I’m also concerned about the zinc and lead, as well as flux by products that will also be part of the cocktail . The slaked lime to carbonate method locks them all up and creates a stable compound that can be easily disposed of. The King Co Art Hazards program that Dave set up is very interesting and you can check it out at http://hazwastehelp.org/ArtHazards/index.aspx .

Laura McClure

7/17/18

Great topic! For a few years, I've been using "PickleIt" from Rio Grande, which is said to be "non-harsh" and can be disposed of in "household drains" according to the box.  When it's time for a new batch, I do what Emilio does: add baking soda to neutralize and have our Hazardous Waste Pick-up take it. The water in DC is already pretty bad, I certainly don't want to add to it!  What type of sand blaster/bead blaster do you use? Is it faster than a pickle? My issue is the need for speed, I have such a large work load, I don't know that I'd have time to blast each mount.  Laura

Laura E. McClure Mountmaker

National Museum of American History

Smithsonian

Office +1 202 633 3339

Email mcclurel@si.edu

www.americanhistory.si.edu

Jamie Hascall 7/17/18

Hi Laura, PickleIt and Sparex#2 are two brands of Sodium Bisulfite marketed as metal pickle. They are safely disposable in their basic form as the other major use of Sodium Bisulfite is as toilet bowl cleaner. However once used, the dissolved metals are what make it not so friendly. Neutralizing with baking soda will raise the pH to a more neutral state, but doesn’t change the dissolved metals content. The disposal method using slaked lime (pickling lime) that I learned truly sequesters the metals, and is a more complete way to dispose of used pickle.  Julia Lowther posted an article on her site that captures the process well. https://shoeboxstudio.com/2016/03/02/be-kind-to-fish-dispose-of-all-spent-pickle-responsibly/  The reason I started this thread was that the pickle buckets at the museums I’ve worked at have hung around for years and have been so obviously contaminated that disposal by pouring down the drain was unthinkable, but often happened anyway.  To answer your other question, I use a small blast cabinet from Harbor Freight that I got off Craigslist for very cheap. I bought a better gun from TPTools.com and use a MIL 10 sized glass bead medium. (100-170 size). I find it cleans the metal very quickly and leaves the surface with a fresh matte finish that reacts quickly with the chemical patina that I finish many of my mounts with. You need a large capacity compressor to be able to use a blast cabinet and I got a low volume gun because ours just big enough to work well. The cabinet is under vacuum with a high volume shop vac running with a small cyclone and a high efficiency filter. Glass bead is a far safer blast medium than sand (silica), but care is needed to capture it as well. The cabinet is under vacuum with a high volume shop vac running with a small dust collector cyclone and a high efficiency filter. The interesting side effect of bead blasting brass is that the impact of the beads work-hardens the metal. If you bead blast a piece of annealed brass, you’ll find it noticeably stiffer after blasting than it was before. The down side is that thin or fine material can actually be somewhat distorted but the impact of the beads and a close fitting mount can end up fitting poorly after the blasting.  As to whether it is faster or not, I’m not sure if I can give a definitive answer. I like that the piece is ready for a finish when I take it out of the cabinet and needs no additional sanding or filing and I have found it works very well in my practice. It is a useful tool that has a definite learning curve as to when it appropriate and when not.  Jamie Jamie Hascall Craftsman, Trainer, Consultant Mountmakingfocus.com jamie@mountmakingfocus.com Seattle, WA

Field, George RBCM:EX

7/17/18

I agree Jamie,

Here at our museum we put things in the pickle pot as we work, so that most of the flux is gone by the time we bead blast them. Without the masking effect of the flux on the metal surface, the soldered areas stay smoother too. We too often use a patina solution and the bead blasted surface gives a good tooth to the surface to hold the color in place.

George

emilio

7/18/18

The patina finish sounds interesting we always paint our mounts to match decks or finishes or the traditional black or white.Can you share a little on the process and materials? is the color like a dark bronze?

Emilio Bras

Exhibits/Mount-making and Lighting

Milwaukee Public Museum

414-278-2765 | emilio@mpm.edu | www.mpm.edu

Field, George RBCM:EX

7/18/18

Hi Emilio,

We use “Novacan- black patina”. (I think it is for stained glass work) It is a  brush on, rinse off product, depending on surface preparation and coats or duration of application you can get from light brown to black. I made a mount for an Egyptian Basalt carving the other day, I applied the patina to the brass, two coats then waxed it and it came out a beautiful deep shiny black.

George

emilio

7/19/18

George,

Thanks I never thought of I will have to look into it. Emilio

Emilio Bras

Exhibits/Mount-making and Lighting

Milwaukee Public Museum

414-278-2765 | emilio@mpm.edu | www.mpm.edu

Jamie Hascall 7/19/18

Emilio, For patinas, you may want to check into Sculpt Nouveau as a source. https://sculptnouveau.com  I tend to use their Birchwood Casey M-24 Antique Brown a lot, but also have a black, and an antique grey that can look good against steel or silver toned metal. Be aware that cold patinas such as these are toxic materials and need to be handled with appropriate care. Please feel free to get in touch if I can answer questions about how we work with them. Jamie Jamie Hascall Craftsman, Trainer, Consultant Mountmakingfocus.com jamie@mountmakingfocus.com Seattle, WA 206-954-4141